The Jerk Debate

Do women only go for men who treat them badly?
(And do men only go for women who do the same?)

I'm the guy 'Aaron' who wrote in with the original posting. I'm amazed by both the volume and the quality of the responses--over 300 letters--most of which were refreshingly candid, thoughtful and well written.   Some were obvious BS and a couple were outright flames, but that is to be expected in the anonymous medium that is the Internet.

After reading through all of them, I conclude the following:

1) That although the sampling wasn't truly scientific, more women are attracted to jerks than nice guys.

2) That of the women who admit they are attracted to jerks, most of them couldn't really, rationally explain why, leading me to believe they don't understand the difference between what they are attracted to and what they say they want.

3) That neither of the extremes (jerk or nice guy) has sustainable success with women.   The jerk does, however, enjoy a short term advantage since he will at least be able to generate attraction at the outset, whereas the nice guy gets blown out almost immediately.   The 'jerk' may get laid, but the woman eventually gets tired of his act.

4) The course of action that leads to the greatest likelihood of success is to switch between 'jerk' and 'nice guy' such that the woman is never quite sure where you're coming from.

No... but we should know this: Women will always choose a man who is or seems to be strong.   And I'm not talking physically. If she can't find a strong guy who's nice, then she'll go for the jerk.  Combine that with the fact that most women seem allergic to being alone for more than five seconds at a stretch...   So there you have it... my five cents.

Well I just was thinking about this today and I think that being a jerk physically is a good idea.   Like it would be better to take a girls hat or something and make her jump for it in a mean way instead of just saying something jerkish.   Now I'm in high school but the older you get I would expect the childish level to change.

A real life example would be in gym I got this super hot girl to take interest in me after she made fun of me and I drilled her in the head with a dodgeball.  I mean I hit her so hard dead on in the face she fell down!   But after that I noticed she came up to talk to me many times about the stupidest stuff.  I thought she would never ever get over the fact that I completely embarrassed her in front of all her friends.   But in reality she hung all over me for a long time.

On the jerk debate, my experience with women is pretty extensive - well I am in my forties, so it should be.   Women don't really like jerks, but they like nice guys even less.   What a woman strives for is a man to be a man, to be confident, to be able to take charge and she will test him to see if he has any cojhones.   She'll do that by trying to push him around and see if he takes it.   If he does and nice guys do, then she will lose interest in him.   If he stands his ground and puts her right, she'll respect him and a woman needs to respect her man.

Clearly, being awful to a woman isn't on, neither is physical or mental abuse in any way.   You simply set the boundaries of what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and women respond well.

To my point of view is not that they feel attracted to jerks and not to nice guys.   We humans assume that the person in front of us is 100% confident and is telling us what he/she wants and feels.   But that is just not true.   So we men and women reject great opportunities in front of us that we like to take but we were insecure to take them.

Nice guys respect so if the person in front says no... because she was insecure at that moment, the nice guy is not going to push further.   The jerk will push further, will take verbal or sometimes fiscal action to get what he wants and will not consider what the other person is thinking or feeling... we all have buy things we didn't want because some jerk almost make us buy it...   And we don't want to admit that we were so week so we might even fall in love with the thing we bought.

The problem here is that next time we humans see someone who wants to sell of something we are not going to trust that person so easy, so we will put more blocks in front of us for not to be persuade ( bitchy shields ) and who will have the skills to break up those shields?   It is very probable that only a bigger Jerk who has gone through this thousands of times...

As women they don't need to be concerned about being lonely because there will always be a jerk, a needy, a drunk, and a horny that would be with her just for their looks.   They just need to say "yes" and that's all, if they really don't want to be lonely that's all they need...   But if they are looking for human quality, warmth and love in a relationship they better start working with their insecurities too, and start being more assertive.

Also some thing I would like to ask to those women... they say they want a real man... I wonder if they can put into words what a real man looks like, and how a real man would act in certain situations... and after that how would they be able to distinguish a real man from the rest of the guys.

I think this a great question...to begin with the fact that being a jerk does get you laid...period. The debate is would you rather be the nice guy and never score, or go against your better judgment and become the jerk all the girls complain about.

Having said that, I think its possible to be both. It isn't the jerkiness that women find attractive it's the masculinity they possess. Not to say that nice guys aren't masculine, it's to say that nice guys are willing to give something that jerks will no budge on...their power.   Jerks never give up their power, where as nice guys believe if they give women their power they will get what they want in return.

It simply doesn't work that way.

To answer this question, "should you become a jerk to score women", my answer is: be enough of a jerk not to give your power away.   Don't be bowled over by womens beauty, celebrate it, but don't be motivated by it.   Believe that it takes more than shiny round parts to impress you. It proves that you're not a typical NICE guy and you hold yourself with respect.

My opinion on the matter is that SEXUALITY and EMPATHY are opposing drives within us, and what makes male or female "jerks" more attractive is that by being inconsiderate they make it easier for us not to be empathic towards them in return--and thus making it easier to pursue our desires guilt free.

In other words, if a person seems genuinely sweet and caring, there is more of a risk of hurting or offending them if we try to get our "kicks" without consideration, i.e. with seriousness of intention, seeking commitment, etc.

I read many of the replays to the "Jerk debate" and seem to be hearing mostly the same thing.   The woman who posted say they don't want a jerk, but they don't want a nice guy either.  It sounds to Me that they want a "nice jerk".

I've tried being the 'nice guy', and it always turns out the same way.   Every girlfriend I've ever had has cheated on me, and then left me.

My friend, well call him Jack, is the nicest, sweetest guy you'd ever meet.   He was always willing to help you out, would hold open doors for total strangers, man and woman alike.   And girls always used him to talk about there problems.   He's over twenty and has only had one girlfriend.   And that was a blind date.   It only lasted less then a week, because she "got bored with him".

Conversely, my buddy, we'll call him Jon, is a total jerk.   He would insult his girlfriends to there faces, humiliate them, and even throw shoes at them.   And yet they always came back for more.

I can even recall this one instance when he was dating two girls at a time, and they would fight over him constantly.

My entire life I've seen these extreme parallels.   And I could never figure out why this was happening.

Aaron did have a logical point, but it's hard to act in a way that is counter to your natural personality.   How does the fish learn to fly?

I think the reason for this, and this is only my opinion, is that women seem to love drama.   And I see this all the time in female media; on TV with shows like Tyra Banks, Real world, and every movie the Lifetime, and WE channel comes out with, and I see it on the magazine racks with headlines like, "guess who's sleeping with who", or "guess who's cheating on who", or "look what this celebrate did" and on, and on.

I like what Trish said, and find myself wondering, "how do I become a sheep in wolfs' clothing"?

(What you call a "nice jerk" is what I call a nice guy with an edge,
read more about it here.)

I think a problem exists on both Aaron's and the readers' parts.   Aaron made a bold, though over-generalizing, statement, and many of the responders seemed to misunderstand both Aaron's message and their own ignorance.   A good many of the women responded negatively to Aaron's argument, saying something to the effect of: "only immature girls like jerks; real women like nice guys," or "women are always searching for the right guy, but can never find him."   They dismiss Aaron's argument out of hand, writing him off as bitter.

As a man who has counseled many friends (mostly women) on relationships, I find merit in what Aaron is trying to say, and a good part of the problem is *where* women look for a partner; "where" not meaning a location, but where in the spectrum of men they look.   Women often find plenty of men who are "nice guys" who will be more than wonderful partners, but these men are immediately categorized as friends, not potential partners.   I know, I'm one of those guys. It doesn't help matters than many "nice guys" have been victim to this "fact of life" and have been rejected so many times "for the sake of the friendship" that they lose all confidence and become self-conscious and love-shy.   If you slap a dog every time it tries to eat, it will eventually starve to death (or, alternatively, go crazy and kill you).   Regardless, I think my point is made.

Now, I'm not trying to go on some "all women are evil" tangent; it's a completely ludicrous mentality, just as the opposing "all men are pigs" is.   What I'm trying to say is that women rely too much on their instincts - on their emotions.   They aren't looking for assholes - they are looking for a chase, as several of the women responders noted.  They like the challenge, and the sad truth is that a good many of the men who put on such a chase are less than saintly.   Women want men who will provide them with this interesting challenge in the beginning, but ultimately be a sweetheart.  This simply isn't how most men are.   They come one way, or the other.

My advice to women is that they should start looking past their chemical attractions and realize that they may well have already met the "perfect man," and they simply didn't realize it.   They need to stop telling that "nice guy" friend of theirs how wonderful he is and how he'll one day meet "that perfect girl;" they need to decide to be that girl with him: chances are he'd agree with me.

My two cents

Some women will prefer jerks to nice guys, some the opposite. In the end, it doesn't matter, because both styles are equally self-destructive. It won't get any man what he wants. And there is a third alternative, which is being our real selves, without pretense, without having to be either mean or wimpy.

Want a jerk story? Here's one...

And to further verify that this shit works I can say it does, because I'm a woman. A gay woman, but still wired a woman nonetheless, despite the social conditioning I have from the straight world, or the gay one.

So I can tell you what it's like from both sides.

I was "going out" for want of a better term with a woman about 2 years ago. She was a real player, though not a good one when it really came down to it. She always wanted to keep her options open, even when it became apparent that she was super into me. I got emails from her all day long, texts, calling me, etc. But she was so over the top about her need to keep her options open it was actually a turn off, instead of being a turn on of independence.

Her interest started out casually enough, and then as we got to know each other, she started really digging me. We became more entwined and closer to each other. We fucked a few times and it became apparent that either she was not so good in bed, or we were just not sexually compatible. It was around that time I started noticing I wasn't very attracted to some of her behavior. She was physically attractive, but her actions weren't. I kept her at arms length.

No sooner than I started doing this she became more interested and pursuing me more. But not in a way that was fun or sexy or a turn on. In a needy neurotic way. When I refused to give in to her bullshit, and when she acted out like a brat I put her in her place, stood my ground, and walked away.

Then she started acting like what we women hate in men. She became a jerk. Not a playful jerk that creates arousal. But a stupid mean jerk, not in control. You know the kind of man who gets turned down after he says or does something so stupid? And then once he gets turned down, he puts the woman down, calling her a bitch, or a dyke, or whatever loser straw he starts grasping at. Big no no, lose ten points and go back ten paces!

Never put a woman down in a mean spirited way if you don't get what you want. It only makes you look like a junior. An adult is always in control. Children act out.

Then the drama started, drama like you wouldn't believe. I backed off slowly and then ran for the hills. She emailed and texted more and more and finally when I was so repelled by her, I started putting her down in a jovial way.

I would say things to her like: "Im going out on a date tonight with this chick who's really into me, she loves the way I kiss." (I brought the kissing up, because she had criticized my kissing once.)

"We'll be kissing and fucking while you sit at home crying. Enjoy the latest episode of the L Word."

Every time she emailed or texted I would bring up some lame thing she did or said and reminded her of it in the context of what I was doing with someone or something else.

She became so uncomfortable and pissed off, but there was nothing she could do about it because she acted like such a loser asshole to me she knew she made her bed and had to lie in it. Still she called emailed and texted always. Finally her emails crawled down to once a week. But she couldn't let go. Because I beat her at her own game. I had my reality and wasn't going to let go of it. She was forced to either come into it, or lose me altogether, cause I didn't give a shit. I had game, MY GAME. Her game was built on a foundation of bullshit. She had no independence, her mood and frame of mind was too easily influenced by what a woman said or did to her. If she was truly indy, she wouldn't care.

I finally ignored her altogether and hooked up with another woman. When the other woman and I broke up guess who I bumped into?

Yup!

We started hanging out and I was at a low point in my life, and she couldn't wait to get in there and make things better and apologize for being a jerk before. Eventually we started hanging out and I started fucking her again. No more comments about kissing, it was time to get down. I was really hungry, the way you get when you come off a bad relationship, and ready to start prowling.

She walked right into my reality again, but this time I had her number down cold.

This time when I fucked her I made sure I worked her over good. This time she was the bitch. And I bitch fucked her so good she was panting after me like a puppy. I couldn't get rid of her. I fucked her on the couch and pounded her with a strap on till she was ready to do anything I said. And she did. I wont go into the details but lets just say I turned her into my personal sex slave for about a month.

I made sure I let her know I didn't want a girlfriend. She agreed to anything I said, but she had other designs. She was getting all mushy on me. She had a girlfriend during all this and I cock teased/pussy teased her so bad she didn't know if she was coming or going. She dumped the girlfriend and I ran the show. The she started getting stupid, thinking things were gonna be the way they were in the beginning. She eventually started up with her usual bag of tricks and acted like an ass.

Once again I ignored her and refused to fuck her, take her calls, only talking to her via short texts. She became so upset and freaked out she started acting desperate. I blocked her emails.

I give it about another week till, I unblock them and I get an email. By then she will have stewed in her own shit and ready to give it up. And I'll hook up with her when I get bored and need some pussy.

Payback's a bitch when you've got game!

It seems to me that girls like the dangerous guy, the jerk etc but its the combo of jerk qualities and the nice guy qualities that wins the girl. the skill part comes to how to ride the balance. You can't be a jerk the whole time, unless maybe you're extremely rich or famous. So its kinda of a hot and cold method that seems to keep girls on their toes which women seem to be attracted to.

Time and time again being Jerkish gets the results we guys want.....being a nice guy gets you the buddy to yak with result.

Last weekend I was out boating with some friends in our boats.

I had the neighbor girl and her room mate guy in mine, and we drove to the beach at the other end of the lake and parked next to all the other boats.

The neighbor girl had been drinking a bit and on the way back started coming on to me while I was driving....smiling at me a lot and bending over so I could see her cleavage, trying to kiss me, getting her hands on me etc...she came over and sat on my lap, so I told her to get her ass back into her own seat.

She couldn't believe what I said and I had to physically get up and set her down in her own seat.....and said "Stay!" to her.

She pouted the rest of the ride home and when we got to shore she asked why I was making it so hard for her.....I told her I was teasing her.

She just would not leave me alone and I was acting very cool and aloof towards her...she then tried to nail me in the nuts with a football to get my attention and missed so I picked her up and threw her in the lake, and went back to my chair and drink.....then she tried wrestling with me, but I pinned her down and spanked her ass.

As you can see she was trying everything to keep my attention on her even though I was being Jerkish by ignoring her as best as I could. You let them get a little close then push them away, drives them crazy...they must consider it a challenge or something, but works like crazy.

Girl are basically attention whores so you give them a taste then push them away and they will be all over you.

You have to start out as both--don't be too interested and slobbering--if you can make them laugh you're off to a good start. I've found that the ones I was least interested in were always chasing me--go figure.

I think we do not have to be a jerk in order to impress women,sometimes not impressing means impressing. Being totally nice is not a good thing because you are always nice and they know how you behave always so they can have you anytime they want. Less is always more and this goes with everything even with food,human,cloths,and anything that comes your mind. The more you have them the less you want them.

Should I be a jerk or not when it comes to women? Well, there's something very important I learned from your work:

First we as men need to command the woman's respect,
Then we need to achieve good rapport (greetings to the NLP folks)
Then we need to achieve her trust
Then we can try to win her love.

It's the order that matters here. In my eyes the nice guys tend to forget the first point or even try to turn it all around!

Does it take a jerk to command her respect? I hope not. Depends if the woman in question is a lady or a bitch. I myself let them know very early that I expect first-class treatment from them if they want first-class treatment from me. Is that jerkish? I believe it's just a fair deal.

No, I just think being a man is enough. We live in the "age of the girly-man" and therefore most women settle for girly-men because for most of them that's, (for all intents and purposes), all that they come into contact with. And so when they meet a MAN it blows them away.

I don't believe anyone has to "act" like a jerk to attract women. If one is acting, eventually women will see through it. Also , if acting, the inner girly-man will reveal itself real quick. The weak, feminized, white male is the archetype of today's culture, and is being churned out in mass production.

Its simple, if one doesn't know how to be a man, fake it until you make it, but don't approach women until you make it, or develop some semblance of manliness, because you might snag a few of them by faking it, but it won't last.

Women catch on very quickly. They're like dogs--they can sense weakness (girly-man). Unless of course all you are interested in is sex. Then go ahead and ball as many as you can if that's your desire. Concluding, speaking for me, I'm 50. I've many, many sexual 'bouts' when I was boxing, from 14 to 22, and thereafter when singing with oldie groups. Not interested in one, two, three nighters or weeks anymore. Well, maybe, sorta, it depends.

Women have a sub-conscious, preprogrammed desire to be with the "strongest" male. It defies logic, from a certain point of view, that being a jerk could actually attract a woman. In a strange way though, women find this outer toughness, this jerkiness, to be a sign of "strength". This only applies to certain women though.

Speaking of the earlier example of using a hard rubber ball to make your point clear, I would guess that the ball simply served as the icebreaker between the boy and girl and also as a shared event. In short, it broke the ice and it opened a dialog between the two.

I sell burritos at school for about $2 and I put about 4 jalapeno's in each one. I have the same 5 girls every day say "oh these are too hot!" and "I hate the jalapeno's!" They are always telling me how I need to change the recipe. But the truth is they buy a burrito EVERY SINGLE DAY! I'm serious! Maybe if they miss a day its because they don't have enough money, but they come back the next day and still complain about the jalapeno's! Girls are weird dude.

I think girls like things that bug them.

Being an Nepali our life style is very different then westerner. I can't even think of treating any of my female counterpart with disrespect and humiliate her. I've my girlfriend and our relation is based on our respect, commitment to each other and how much we miss each other then the physical need and more then any attraction for sex. We never had sex during our 2 years of love affair and it's not because sex is still taboo in Nepal it's because we could wait it till the marriage. And there are more things more important in love then just sex right?

And finally being jerk with women may be as the result of immature psychology of human behavior. Ever body on earth have their dignity and we should respect them. Even if some women wish their male partner being jerk with them... it's their personal matter. But it's not going to apply to the majority.

So long as women can lie, men should be jerks!  If a woman wants to date somebody other than a jerk I suggest you keep your pants on and bring something to the relationship that is actually worth having, and different from what any other woman could bring to the relationship.

I've found that women don't necessarily want jerks or nice guys.  I view those as the two extremes.  In my experience, the women that are with the jerks will leave them sooner or later...it takes some longer than others but in the end they get tired of taking their crap and bolt.  Nice guys usually don't even get that much time spent on them.  I think women want men that are somewhere in the middle ground.  They want a guy who is kind and compassionate without coming off as weak.  They also want a man that isn't just a puppy dog waiting for attention...they want a guy who may not always have time to be with them (as dumb as that my sound).

Some of my best relationships were back when I played college ball. I had almost no time to do anything but school, football, and work...but somehow the girls loved that. They loved the fact that I wasn't there all the time and that they often times had to find an opening in my schedule to be with me.   I guess it is true...women love a challenge.  I guess what I'm saying is just be somewhere in the middle ground...be a man but also remember to treat women right and with respect.

I cannot be a jerk, it is not me.  It also means that I have no companionship, or anyone that I can talk to.  I also don't date, so it really doesn't matter.   I had a fiancee once, but she died before we could get married.   I really loved her, and she me.   I still miss her almost 30 years later.   Many years later, I married a woman who turned into a hopeless alcoholic, and I was forced to leave her.

Except for the occasional hooker, I just go to work, come back home, and stay to myself.   Hopefully I won't live a long time.   Everyone else goes out and has a good time, but I don't have it in me anymore.   I want my life sentence to be over.

Regarding jerk to women my experience is this - women have the sixth sense to assess your capacity of jerkness just by seeing you.   If she is satisfied mentally that you can be a good jerk to her - she is not going to leave you.